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Post by Cristobal Huet on Nov 21, 2006 10:58:15 GMT -5
Karsums was an exciting player to watch as early as the pre-season ... and he took a regular shift from the get go and showed that he deserved it. Martikaenan is still trying to earn regular ice time ... hasn't shown anything that makes you think he will be a star of the Karsums level. The only similarities I see between Martikaenan and the 17 yr old Karsums are that they both wear Wildcat jerseys ... and play hockey in Moncton. Martikaenan reminds me more of Bobby Mazerolle ... which isn't exactly high praise. Mazerolle had a nice year at 17 but he regressed because of a poor work ethic and never really got another shot. The Cats invested time in Karsums and gave him a chance to get adjusted, Torchetti has not done that with Martikanen or Voroshilov. They have spent more time in the stands or 4th line than getting any type of regular ice. Karsums had 7pts his first 16 games, Martikanen had 4 in 16...in about half the ice time. The only advantage Karsums had over Martikanen at the same age is he was more developped physically, Martikanen has a bigger frame but he is not filled out. Both are strong skaters, like the physical game. Martikanen needs to get a regular shift and be allowed to forecheck and drive to the net, he has the hands to finish once he gets there.
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Post by Cristobal Huet on Nov 21, 2006 10:59:35 GMT -5
The next 10 games for Karsums... 9 goals 5 assists 14 points 9 min +10 25 shots 23 hits I don't think you will see that from our Fin in his next 10 games. Stop comparing them Billy. You would see it if he had the same opprtunity that Karsums got. You can't score from the stands or getting 4 shifts on a 4th line.
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Post by curtis on Nov 21, 2006 11:29:06 GMT -5
It seems awfully short-sighted not to be giving the Euros more and better quality ice time right away, although at the same time our lineup is older than it will be in a few weeks. I still think both can be effective players, given the opportunity.
On the flipside, as much as our Euros have disappointed (or maybe expectations were too high), I think Labelle-Lessard-LePage are rounding into form quite nicely. Not all of your young players are going to play well initially, and I think the Cats have to consider the overall rookie situation at least satisfactory for now.
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Post by yessir on Nov 21, 2006 11:53:29 GMT -5
It looks like the owner and coach still haven't made up their mind's,go for it or rebuild, imo rebuild we have a lot of players that need time to develop. Some can do it with more ice time back in JR. A or midget AAA some need to step up their game by playing at a higher level.
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Post by Cristobal Huet on Nov 21, 2006 11:56:04 GMT -5
It seems awfully short-sighted not to be giving the Euros more and better quality ice time right away, although at the same time our lineup is older than it will be in a few weeks. I still think both can be effective players, given the opportunity. On the flipside, as much as our Euros have disappointed (or maybe expectations were too high), I think Labelle-Lessard-LePage are rounding into form quite nicely. Not all of your young players are going to play well initially, and I think the Cats have to consider the overall rookie situation at least satisfactory for now. Torchetti has invested a lot of time in Labelle Lessard and Lepage, I think Martikanen has more upside than the last 2, maybe as much as Labelle. Voroshilov has at least as much as the last 2. It's hard to compare with such a difference in ice time.
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Dar
Junior Member
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Post by Dar on Nov 21, 2006 12:27:43 GMT -5
The next 10 games for Karsums... 9 goals 5 assists 14 points 9 min +10 25 shots 23 hits I don't think you will see that from our Fin in his next 10 games. Stop comparing them Billy. You would see it if he had the same opprtunity that Karsums got. You can't score from the stands or getting 4 shifts on a 4th line. In the coach's eyes if he deserves more ice time, he will get it. Karsums got that ice time with a lot less rookies on the team in his first year. As for being in the stands... the stats I showed are for games they played, not the games the team played. And Karsums sat out a few games in the stands also when we had Shkotov in the lineup for a while. I'm not saying Martikainen has no potential or no upside. But I am also saying we can't compare him to Karsums.
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Post by Cristobal Huet on Nov 21, 2006 12:42:59 GMT -5
You would see it if he had the same opprtunity that Karsums got. You can't score from the stands or getting 4 shifts on a 4th line. In the coach's eyes if he deserves more ice time, he will get it. Karsums got that ice time with a lot less rookies on the team in his first year. As for being in the stands... the stats I showed are for games they played, not the games the team played. And Karsums sat out a few games in the stands also when we had Shkotov in the lineup for a while. I'm not saying Martikainen has no potential or no upside. But I am also saying we can't compare him to Karsums. Why not? Your stats seem to show not a huge difference in their numbers at the same stage...and you concede martikanen has not seen nearly as much ice time. You can argue wether he deserves the ice time or not, but Martikanen has not gotten nearly as much ice time as Karsums 3 years ago.
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Dar
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Post by Dar on Nov 21, 2006 13:27:45 GMT -5
In the coach's eyes if he deserves more ice time, he will get it. Karsums got that ice time with a lot less rookies on the team in his first year. As for being in the stands... the stats I showed are for games they played, not the games the team played. And Karsums sat out a few games in the stands also when we had Shkotov in the lineup for a while. I'm not saying Martikainen has no potential or no upside. But I am also saying we can't compare him to Karsums. Why not? Your stats seem to show not a huge difference in their numbers at the same stage...and you concede martikanen has not seen nearly as much ice time. You can argue wether he deserves the ice time or not, but Martikanen has not gotten nearly as much ice time as Karsums 3 years ago. Martikanen not getting much ice time on a team full of rookies vs Karsums getting more ice time on a more established team That tells the story right there. They are not the same caliber in there respective first year in the Q.
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Post by Cristobal Huet on Nov 21, 2006 13:41:21 GMT -5
Why not? Your stats seem to show not a huge difference in their numbers at the same stage...and you concede martikanen has not seen nearly as much ice time. You can argue wether he deserves the ice time or not, but Martikanen has not gotten nearly as much ice time as Karsums 3 years ago. Martikanen not getting much ice time on a team full of rookies vs Karsums getting more ice time on a more established team That tells the story right there. They are not the same caliber in there respective first year in the Q. I guess you will never question anything Torchetti says or does... It's a team full of rookies but so far they are more committed to winning games than developing young players. The Euros have not gotten the same opportunities as Smith Lepage Labelle Lessard Maclellan etc.
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Post by SteveUL on Nov 21, 2006 13:45:37 GMT -5
Martikanen not getting much ice time on a team full of rookies vs Karsums getting more ice time on a more established team That tells the story right there. They are not the same caliber in there respective first year in the Q. I guess you will never question anything Torchetti says or does... It's a team full of rookies but so far they are more committed to winning games than developing young players. The Euros have not gotten the same opportunities as Smith Lepage Labelle Lessard Maclellan etc. Perhaps they aren't showing in practice that they deserve playing time ... while the others have been.
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Post by jimmy on Nov 21, 2006 13:51:59 GMT -5
Martikanen not getting much ice time on a team full of rookies vs Karsums getting more ice time on a more established team That tells the story right there. They are not the same caliber in there respective first year in the Q. I guess you will never question anything Torchetti says or does... It's a team full of rookies but so far they are more committed to winning games than developing young players. The Euros have not gotten the same opportunities as Smith Lepage Labelle Lessard Maclellan etc. The euros have had limited opportunities ... but do they deserve more? Their play in game action suggests no - I don't watch practices so I can't comment on that. Torchetti and co. give plenty of opportunities to young players who earn it ... Cameron, Brenton, Labelle, and Lessard are four 17 year old forwards getting regular ice time and doing more with it than Martikainen or Voroshilov... MacLellan, Smith, and Lepage are a year older and theoretically have less upside - Smith has already been cast aside, MacLellan is thriving in a checking role which neither euro is best suited for, and Lepage has had only marginally more opportunity to play than the euros (and IMO has looked slightly better). Bottom line is at this point, Martikainen and Voroshilov have been our 5th and 6th best 17 year old forwards (behind Cameron, Labelle, Brenton, and Lessard) ... how much more icetime can they realistically expect? And if those other four guys are the same age and better right now, who is to say that the euros have more upside? IMO, we are better to invest the icetime in th other four for the future, and simply draft new euros next year ... unless one of them comes around in the second half. And finally, whatever scout had Martikainen tabbed as a second rounder for the upcoming NHL draft should lose his job ... he is not overly fast, doesn't have a good shot, and needs to add a lot of muscle, plus his hockey sense seems questionable (the last one may be an adjustment to NA thing). You can usually tell when a guy has a lot of talent but is struggling to adjust - you see flashes of the speed, and the odd rocket of a shot ... I am not seeing that at all from Martikainen.
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Dar
Junior Member
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Post by Dar on Nov 21, 2006 14:15:10 GMT -5
Martikanen not getting much ice time on a team full of rookies vs Karsums getting more ice time on a more established team That tells the story right there. They are not the same caliber in there respective first year in the Q. I guess you will never question anything Torchetti says or does... It's a team full of rookies but so far they are more committed to winning games than developing young players. The Euros have not gotten the same opportunities as Smith Lepage Labelle Lessard Maclellan etc. I'll question you more than I will question Torchetti. Don't take it the wrong way, but I think his hockey knowledge/experience is better than yours.
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Post by Cristobal Huet on Nov 21, 2006 14:25:09 GMT -5
I guess you will never question anything Torchetti says or does... It's a team full of rookies but so far they are more committed to winning games than developing young players. The Euros have not gotten the same opportunities as Smith Lepage Labelle Lessard Maclellan etc. I'll question you more than I will question Torchetti. Don't take it the wrong way, but I think his hockey knowledge/experience is better than yours. People with endless knowledge still make the wrong call from time to time or have a bias against certain players. I just find it curious that Lessard and Lepage keep getting one opportunity after the other wether they play well or not while the 2 Euros get no slack.
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