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Post by catnut on Nov 20, 2006 18:39:35 GMT -5
When's the last time we drafted two euros that didn't pan out all that well for us (not counting the years we didn't draft)? I'm thinking 2001, when we drafted Shkotov (didn't report, was forced to report, got hosed by Quebec in a trade for him because they basically had us cornered) and Konkov (never reported). That was the worst, IMO. Going through the other years, we either drafted pretty well or at least received good compensation for at least one of the Euros we drafted each year. Pretty hard to crap on the Euro scouting staff we have in place when they only have years like this once every four or five seasons. Konkov was drafted with Thoresen, Shkotov was drafted the following year with Artukhin. Wasn't Thoresen drafted the same year as Oduya?
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Post by Cristobal Huet on Nov 20, 2006 19:24:33 GMT -5
Konkov was drafted with Thoresen, Shkotov was drafted the following year with Artukhin. Wasn't Thoresen drafted the same year as Oduya? Oduya was the same year as Deev.
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Post by Sec21critic on Nov 20, 2006 22:24:13 GMT -5
Wasn't Thoresen drafted the same year as Oduya? Oduya was the same year as Deev. Yeah... forgot about that. I guess this year WOULD be the worst draft yet... although it is still fairly early. That 2000 draft was actually quite productive... we got Oduya and Deev, which we turned into Sanford, Kyres, St.Pierre and a 2nd rounder.
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Post by MacKevin on Nov 20, 2006 23:17:43 GMT -5
I don't speak French very well but I did get enough to know Bourdon did mention what he thought would happen to him after Christmas during an interview on RDS and the ADT Championship. Could some give a better description of what he said?
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Post by Cristobal Huet on Nov 21, 2006 6:56:59 GMT -5
Oduya was the same year as Deev. Yeah... forgot about that. I guess this year WOULD be the worst draft yet... although it is still fairly early. That 2000 draft was actually quite productive... we got Oduya and Deev, which we turned into Sanford, Kyres, St.Pierre and a 2nd rounder. Martikanen could be as good as Karsums if Torchetti ever gave him any kind of opportunity. He sits for 5 games while LePage plays, then plays on the 4th line...and he is still not playing too bad.
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Post by Dugger on Nov 21, 2006 7:56:06 GMT -5
How long do you think it will be before Voroshilov and for that matter Martikainen decide to pack it in and go home, it's a long ways to come just to practise.
Martikainen has made the argument that he should get more ice time but Voroshilov, he really hasn't had the chance to prove himself. All this doesn't bode well for our scouts crediblity if they recommend these guys and they can't crack the line-up of a 17 year old laden team.
Maybe there are behind the scene happenings that are factoring in on these decisions but until those (if they exist) come to light then this really doesn't look good on our scouting staff "IF" the players mentioned are being given a fair look by the coaching staff.
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Post by SteveUL on Nov 21, 2006 9:17:46 GMT -5
How long do you think it will be before Voroshilov and for that matter Martikainen decide to pack it in and go home, it's a long ways to come just to practise. Martikainen has made the argument that he should get more ice time but Voroshilov, he really hasn't had the chance to prove himself. All this doesn't bode well for our scouts crediblity if they recommend these guys and they can't crack the line-up of a 17 year old laden team. Maybe there are behind the scene happenings that are factoring in on these decisions but until those (if they exist) come to light then this really doesn't look good on our scouting staff "IF" the players mentioned are being given a fair look by the coaching staff. Danny Flynn was in charge of the Euro draft ... and I think Martikaenan was selected unseen (by him) but he was on the radar for NHL scouts ... seemed like minimal risk ... and the exchange program and exhibition series with the Finns also played into us taking Martikaenan. The big mistake was taking a 17 yr old in a year where an 18 or 19 yr old would have been much better. Not good planning by Flynn ... which is odd as I expect that he would think of that. Voroshilov ... I have no idea where the info came from on him ... not really on the NHL radar ... comes from the same country as Zakharov so perhaps the info came from Zakharov's father who was the Coach of their National Jr team. Both guys certainly have skill ... but at 17 there skill is no more than the other 17 yr olds ... and they struggle in a system that they aren't getting enough time to play in and adapt to. Billy says Martikaenan could be as good as Karsums ... but I just don't see that comparison at all ... Karsums looked like Karsums at 17 ... he showed what he could do at 17 with his big hits and power along the wing. Martikaenan doesn't have the strength in his legs to offer anything that Karsums brought ... and he looks confused out there most of the time ... usually a half step too slow in his reaction ... rarely carries the puck ... he is trying out there ... playing physical when he can ... working hard ... but its just not coming together for him. He takes more penalties than most ... and Voroshilov isn't far behind him. Torchetti has to make a decision on these two ... give them consistent icetime for awhile and see if they can show something ... or end the experiment. I'd personally rather see Brad Smith back if one of these Euros goes home. I wouldn't be surprised if Voroshilov has already gone home.
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Post by SteveUL on Nov 21, 2006 9:24:04 GMT -5
[quote author=porkchop board=20062007 thread=116371341 There is no benefit to us in what you suggest with Vancouver assigning a Euro here ... we can draft our own Euro without their help ... and we get the same benefit for the Wildcats. I said a balance is needed ... meaning we have to get some benefit from Bourdon staying here ... getting a Euro from Vancouver is no benefit we couldn't get on our own. If Vancouver can't make it worth our while then there is no good reason to do it. If Vancouver wants us to play ball then they have to make it worth our while. Real good point Steve, cause we all know we did AWESOME at this years Euro draft So you are suggesting that because we had a bad kick at the Euro draft this time around that we will always struggle there ? Good logic. One of the advantages we have compared to other Q teams is money ... we can target higher end guys and convince them to come ... just like Quebec does successfully. We can even utilize our contacts with the Islanders to bring in high end kids ... and Torchetti has all sorts of NHL contacts and is highly respected by his NHL peers ... making it attractive for NHL teams to want their Euro players here. Yeah ... we'll suck at the Euro draft from now on ... its proven ...
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Post by Cristobal Huet on Nov 21, 2006 9:29:51 GMT -5
How long do you think it will be before Voroshilov and for that matter Martikainen decide to pack it in and go home, it's a long ways to come just to practise. Martikainen has made the argument that he should get more ice time but Voroshilov, he really hasn't had the chance to prove himself. All this doesn't bode well for our scouts crediblity if they recommend these guys and they can't crack the line-up of a 17 year old laden team. Maybe there are behind the scene happenings that are factoring in on these decisions but until those (if they exist) come to light then this really doesn't look good on our scouting staff "IF" the players mentioned are being given a fair look by the coaching staff. Danny Flynn was in charge of the Euro draft ... and I think Martikaenan was selected unseen (by him) but he was on the radar for NHL scouts ... seemed like minimal risk ... and the exchange program and exhibition series with the Finns also played into us taking Martikaenan. The big mistake was taking a 17 yr old in a year where an 18 or 19 yr old would have been much better. Not good planning by Flynn ... which is odd as I expect that he would think of that. Voroshilov ... I have no idea where the info came from on him ... not really on the NHL radar ... comes from the same country as Zakharov so perhaps the info came from Zakharov's father who was the Coach of their National Jr team. Both guys certainly have skill ... but at 17 there skill is no more than the other 17 yr olds ... and they struggle in a system that they aren't getting enough time to play in and adapt to. Billy says Martikaenan could be as good as Karsums ... but I just don't see that comparison at all ... Karsums looked like Karsums at 17 ... he showed what he could do at 17 with his big hits and power along the wing. Martikaenan doesn't have the strength in his legs to offer anything that Karsums brought ... and he looks confused out there most of the time ... usually a half step too slow in his reaction ... rarely carries the puck ... he is trying out there ... playing physical when he can ... working hard ... but its just not coming together for him. He takes more penalties than most ... and Voroshilov isn't far behind him. Torchetti has to make a decision on these two ... give them consistent icetime for awhile and see if they can show something ... or end the experiment. I'd personally rather see Brad Smith back if one of these Euros goes home. I wouldn't be surprised if Voroshilov has already gone home. Karsums looked exactly like Martikanen looks now until he hit his stride 20 games in. The Cats invested a lot more time in their Euros(Karsums and Zakharov) than they did this year. I think one of the reasons Martikanen looks a bit lost, they seem to be trying to get him to play a different style of game. Plus even in games he has played, his ice time has been sporadic. Both guys looked like they had above average skills for 17 year olds in preseason, for whatever reason, Torchetti is playing older guys taht can help him now instead of trying to develop these 2.
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Post by mikeb on Nov 21, 2006 9:39:57 GMT -5
I highly doubt that Vancouver has given Moncton a "no trade clause" with respect to Bourdon. Makes no sense on so many different levels. Just picking out one reason for doing what Vancouver says; does a CHL team really need to be on good terms with every NHL team. They can't all help out. All you really need is a couple/few teams.
VD is more than likely to have a restricted "no trade clause". Bourdon can't be traded back to the West Division. That is very plausible and it has existed in the past.
And going back in time, Boston sent Jon Girard back to the Bathurst with a "must trade clause". He had to be traded to a contender where he would get lots of playing time and go deep into the playoffs to increase his development. Playing on a non-contender won't develop a player as much as playing in the finals of the President's Cup.
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Post by foreigner on Nov 21, 2006 10:10:24 GMT -5
I highly doubt that Vancouver has given Moncton a "no trade clause" with respect to Bourdon. Makes no sense on so many different levels. Just picking out one reason for doing what Vancouver says; does a CHL team really need to be on good terms with every NHL team. They can't all help out. All you really need is a couple/few teams. VD is more than likely to have a restricted "no trade clause". Bourdon can't be traded back to the West Division. That is very plausible and it has existed in the past. And going back in time, Boston sent Jon Girard back to the Bathurst with a "must trade clause". He had to be traded to a contender where he would get lots of playing time and go deep into the playoffs to increase his development. Playing on a non-contender won't develop a player as much as playing in the finals of the President's Cup. So let's say there is some kind of a clause with VD preventing a trade of Bourdon back to the West, would that only apply to Moncton or if perhaps the Wildcats made a deal for him within the division, would that team be prevented from pulling another deal that would send him back to the West? I know, probably unlikely but I can't help but think that most of these no trade clause scenarios are unlikely as there would appear to be ways around alot of them....
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Post by Cristobal Huet on Nov 21, 2006 10:27:12 GMT -5
There are no conditions, Bourdon can be traded anywhere.
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Dar
Junior Member
Posts: 198
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Post by Dar on Nov 21, 2006 10:36:03 GMT -5
Danny Flynn was in charge of the Euro draft ... and I think Martikaenan was selected unseen (by him) but he was on the radar for NHL scouts ... seemed like minimal risk ... and the exchange program and exhibition series with the Finns also played into us taking Martikaenan. The big mistake was taking a 17 yr old in a year where an 18 or 19 yr old would have been much better. Not good planning by Flynn ... which is odd as I expect that he would think of that. Voroshilov ... I have no idea where the info came from on him ... not really on the NHL radar ... comes from the same country as Zakharov so perhaps the info came from Zakharov's father who was the Coach of their National Jr team. Both guys certainly have skill ... but at 17 there skill is no more than the other 17 yr olds ... and they struggle in a system that they aren't getting enough time to play in and adapt to. Billy says Martikaenan could be as good as Karsums ... but I just don't see that comparison at all ... Karsums looked like Karsums at 17 ... he showed what he could do at 17 with his big hits and power along the wing. Martikaenan doesn't have the strength in his legs to offer anything that Karsums brought ... and he looks confused out there most of the time ... usually a half step too slow in his reaction ... rarely carries the puck ... he is trying out there ... playing physical when he can ... working hard ... but its just not coming together for him. He takes more penalties than most ... and Voroshilov isn't far behind him. Torchetti has to make a decision on these two ... give them consistent icetime for awhile and see if they can show something ... or end the experiment. I'd personally rather see Brad Smith back if one of these Euros goes home. I wouldn't be surprised if Voroshilov has already gone home. Karsums looked exactly like Martikanen looks now until he hit his stride 20 games in. The Cats invested a lot more time in their Euros(Karsums and Zakharov) than they did this year. I think one of the reasons Martikanen looks a bit lost, they seem to be trying to get him to play a different style of game. Plus even in games he has played, his ice time has been sporadic. Both guys looked like they had above average skills for 17 year olds in preseason, for whatever reason, Torchetti is playing older guys taht can help him now instead of trying to develop these 2. After 16 games g a pts pen +/- shots hits Martikainen 2 2 4 4 0 11 11 First 16 games for Karsums 6 1 7 28 -6 33 38
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Post by SteveUL on Nov 21, 2006 10:45:31 GMT -5
Karsums was an exciting player to watch as early as the pre-season ... and he took a regular shift from the get go and showed that he deserved it.
Martikaenan is still trying to earn regular ice time ... hasn't shown anything that makes you think he will be a star of the Karsums level.
The only similarities I see between Martikaenan and the 17 yr old Karsums are that they both wear Wildcat jerseys ... and play hockey in Moncton. Martikaenan reminds me more of Bobby Mazerolle ... which isn't exactly high praise.
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Dar
Junior Member
Posts: 198
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Post by Dar on Nov 21, 2006 10:50:20 GMT -5
The next 10 games for Karsums...
9 goals 5 assists 14 points 9 min +10 25 shots 23 hits
I don't think you will see that from our Fin in his next 10 games.
Stop comparing them Billy.
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