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Post by SteveUL on Jun 25, 2007 8:10:16 GMT -5
We've always viewed the Q as being a better route to develop skills and get seen by scouts than NCAA and other US hockey options. But this draft shows us that the players drafted out of the Q is consistently less than those drafted out of US hockey programs that we compete with for players. USHL, USDP and HS programs in the US combined, consistently had more players drafted in each round than the Q did. That doesn't even include those drafted out of NCAA.
So if we are going to try to pass our league off as a better option for developing hockey skills when compared to US options ... why isn't the Q contributing more players to the draft ?
US born players have several options in the US that are showing that they can produce NHL calibre players ... just as the Q can.
So that begs the question ... why would a US born kid want to come play in the Q ... when they can play USHL, USDP or HS (prep) and still get exposure to scouts ... and hold onto their NCAA eligibility ?
Also, local kids (Brown, Anthony, MacAusland, Malone) that want to hold onto NCAA eligibility can exercise the option of going to play Jr in the US until they are certain of the decision and opportunity to play NCAA ... Malone was just drafted out of the USHL (4th Rd Colorado). The USHL is likely much better scouted than the MJAHL ... and likely gives them access to better options and scholarship and education opportunities.
The Q and to a lesser extent the CHL (The OHL and WHL are producing more players for the draft) has to change the way they do things to make playing in the Q an attractive option to US born players. The Q wants to utilize the US territory to draw players from but they seem to get mad when bigger market teams spend big bucks to lure these kids here. It seems to be a contradiction in ideas.
One of the biggest problems the Q faces is it is trying to draw english speaking kids (US born) into predominantly french markets ... so teams like Moncton and Halifax are more attractive options than Chicoutimi and Val D'Or to these kids ... but there is always the risk of a trade ... and no trade clauses make a player even more expensive to bring in (Can't trade him later on to recover assets). The Q has set up an opportunity to bring in a new talent base that not all teams will be able to access. If the Maritime based teams start drawing in US born players while 7 or 8 Quebec based teams cannot draw them (Quebec and Gatineau can) ... watch the Q change the rules.
The Q has a real problem on their hands and they need to fix it. Banning US born players is not an option as they will go to the OHL and strengthen those leagues ... plus we have a US based team and that would make no sense. The main reason Lewiston has a team is to create Q exposure in New England. This will turn into a situation ... it already has ... where the rich teams can attract the US boys ... while the smaller markets cannot. Or ... no teams will be able to attract them because there are better options in the US.
We are also not keeping up with the OHL and WHL is producing NHL calibre players ... and we wonder why we can't place and abundance players on National teams ?
I think the Q needs some new leadership ... and I think the Q has to make better efforts to pass itself off as an english-friendly environment ... in all communities. The language barrier is a big hindrance to attracting outside talent.
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Post by Cristobal Huet on Jun 25, 2007 8:29:29 GMT -5
The problem is that the Q had a down year in their 2005 MAAA draft, that's all it is...last year was a banner year for the Q at the NHL draft...and the next 2 NHL drafts should be strong with the Sauve Anthony Despres Cormier Cornet Caron Poulin.
Compare the Q numers to OHL and WHL for the 2006 draft.
The US program has gained on the rest of the hockey world because of the U17 and U18 programm their system was in the toilet for 10 years from 95 to 05.
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Post by forrest on Jun 25, 2007 8:30:49 GMT -5
I have mentionned this a few times that NCAA is getting more and more attractive. There are lots of advantages that doesn't only include education. The QMJHL (CHL) is more attractive for high-end players who want the fastest route to the NHL.
As far as the language barrier, it is more than a league problem, it is a culture in Quebec. People are posting all over radoter, RDS and every Quebec base messageboard how they are pissed at Gainey for not chosing Quebec-born players. Very few of them even want to give him the benefit of the doubt. That is just one example of the culture.
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Dar
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Post by Dar on Jun 25, 2007 8:30:59 GMT -5
The Q should look at moving 1-2 financially troubled teams to the states to add with Lewiston's presence. This would probably build up the Q exposure and attract more US players to the league. Couldn't hurt.
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Post by Cristobal Huet on Jun 25, 2007 8:41:54 GMT -5
The Q should look at moving 1-2 financially troubled teams to the states to add with Lewiston's presence. This would probably build up the Q exposure and attract more US players to the league. Couldn't hurt. How many big name US players have played for Lewiston in their 3 years there? The 2 things that keep US players from the 1-they grew up in the culture of High School and NCAA hockey 2-it takes big $$$ to steer them away from NCAA
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Post by SteveUL on Jun 25, 2007 9:25:57 GMT -5
The Q should look at moving 1-2 financially troubled teams to the states to add with Lewiston's presence. This would probably build up the Q exposure and attract more US players to the league. Couldn't hurt. How many big name US players have played for Lewiston in their 3 years there? The 2 things that keep US players from the 1-they grew up in the culture of High School and NCAA hockey 2-it takes big $$$ to steer them away from NCAA It all takes time though .... its not going to happen overnight. Now that Lewiston has won a Prez Cup they may be able to make better in-roads to attracting bigger named US born players. But one team is probably not enough to make it an attractive option ... if there were two more then you'd see more interest ... and travel for these teams would be reduced. Right now Lewiston has something like a minimum of a 5 hr drive for any road game. I'm not looking for more expansion ... just relocation of teams like Bathurst and other weak sisters.
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Post by Cristobal Huet on Jun 25, 2007 9:34:50 GMT -5
How many big name US players have played for Lewiston in their 3 years there? The 2 things that keep US players from the 1-they grew up in the culture of High School and NCAA hockey 2-it takes big $$$ to steer them away from NCAA It all takes time though .... its not going to happen overnight. Now that Lewiston has won a Prez Cup they may be able to make better in-roads to attracting bigger named US born players. But one team is probably not enough to make it an attractive option ... if there were two more then you'd see more interest ... and travel for these teams would be reduced. Right now Lewiston has something like a minimum of a 5 hr drive for any road game. I'm not looking for more expansion ... just relocation of teams like Bathurst and other weak sisters. It has nothing to do with travel...it's $$$$. Lewiston is a small maket by Q standards.
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Post by curtis on Jun 25, 2007 10:09:33 GMT -5
I wonder if the Q could stage a "meet and greet" in Boston (and maybe let the local players play some scrimmage games) without violating NCAA regulations. Bring some alumni that would be recognizable (Giguere, Richards, etc..) to the kids and their parents and have them explain what the league is all about.
Bottom line is that major junior is a quicker route to the pros if you don't plan on playing 4-5 full years of NCAA.
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MikeC
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Post by MikeC on Jun 25, 2007 17:37:41 GMT -5
We've always viewed the Q as being a better route to develop skills and get seen by scouts than NCAA and other US hockey options. But this draft shows us that the players drafted out of the Q is consistently less than those drafted out of US hockey programs that we compete with for players. USHL, USDP and HS programs in the US combined, consistently had more players drafted in each round than the Q did. That doesn't even include those drafted out of NCAA. So if we are going to try to pass our league off as a better option for developing hockey skills when compared to US options ... why isn't the Q contributing more players to the draft ? I agree with a lot of what you are saying here, except that this is something new for 2007. In each of the last 7 drafts, US leagues (NCAA, USNTDP, USHL, Prep, etc) has had more draftees than any individual Canadian Major Junior league. The least amount drafted from the US leagues in any one draft is 47. The most taken from a Canadian Major Junior league is 45. Totals 2001-2007 OHL- 269 QMJHL- 187 WHL- 277 US leagues- 417 But one thing you have to consider in the US is the number of leagues and teams. There are around 60 NCAA D1 schools, 12 USHL teams, 18 NAHL (incl USNTDP), plus numerous prep and high school teams and other junior leagues. The total number of teams represented by the US leagues is no doubt well over 100. I guess what I'm saying is that the Q does have more NHL draftees than any one US league if you look at it on a per team basis.
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Post by SteveUL on Jun 25, 2007 18:46:05 GMT -5
We've always viewed the Q as being a better route to develop skills and get seen by scouts than NCAA and other US hockey options. But this draft shows us that the players drafted out of the Q is consistently less than those drafted out of US hockey programs that we compete with for players. USHL, USDP and HS programs in the US combined, consistently had more players drafted in each round than the Q did. That doesn't even include those drafted out of NCAA. So if we are going to try to pass our league off as a better option for developing hockey skills when compared to US options ... why isn't the Q contributing more players to the draft ? I agree with a lot of what you are saying here, except that this is something new for 2007. In each of the last 7 drafts, US leagues (NCAA, USNTDP, USHL, Prep, etc) has had more draftees than any individual Canadian Major Junior league. The least amount drafted from the US leagues in any one draft is 47. The most taken from a Canadian Major Junior league is 45. Totals 2001-2007 OHL- 269 QMJHL- 187 WHL- 277 US leagues- 417 But one thing you have to consider in the US is the number of leagues and teams. There are around 60 NCAA D1 schools, 12 USHL teams, 18 NAHL (incl USNTDP), plus numerous prep and high school teams and other junior leagues. The total number of teams represented by the US leagues is no doubt well over 100. I guess what I'm saying is that the Q does have more NHL draftees than any one US league if you look at it on a per team basis. I'm trying to leave out the NCAA out of the equation ... and looking more at the kids that we are trying to convince to come to the Q instead of NCAA. Once they are in NCAA they are almost a foregone conclusion. So when I look at USDP, USHL and HS ... players that are not yet in NCAA and so are real prospects ... players that are probably waiting for their chance to go NCAA. If the Q can't hands down trump the number of players being drafted from these pre-NCAA options ... then they have very little chance of getting US born players to come here. Its always been the line that the Q is better than USHL and so US kids should come here instead of wasting their time in that league ... but that doesn't seem to be the case. The USHL is beginning to produce just as many draftable players as the Q ... which means "why would a US kid come here instead? "
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MikeC
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Post by MikeC on Jun 25, 2007 19:04:59 GMT -5
I'm trying to leave out the NCAA out of the equation ... and looking more at the kids that we are trying to convince to come to the Q instead of NCAA. Once they are in NCAA they are almost a foregone conclusion. So when I look at USDP, USHL and HS ... players that are not yet in NCAA and so are real prospects ... players that are probably waiting for their chance to go NCAA. If the Q can't hands down trump the number of players being drafted from these pre-NCAA options ... then they have very little chance of getting US born players to come here. Its always been the line that the Q is better than USHL and so US kids should come here instead of wasting their time in that league ... but that doesn't seem to be the case. The USHL is beginning to produce just as many draftable players as the Q ... which means "why would a US kid come here instead? " That's kind of a misconception, due to the new NHL CBA. In the old CBA, the draft age was actually 18, with 17 year olds eligible to 'opt in'. However, opting in negated your NCAA eligibility, so none of those US players did it. So they weren't getting drafted until after their 18 year old season, which they played at the NCAA level. In the new CBA, everybody is eligible after their 17 year old season (no opt in). So all these NCAA guys are now getting drafted before their first year of college, not after it. Players drafted from NCAA: during last 4 years of old CBA: 115 (avg 28.75 per year) during first 3 years of new CBA: 39 (avg 13 per year) Players drafted from US Junior/Prep leagues: during last 4 years of old CBA: 122 (avg 30.5) during first 3 years of new CBA: 141 (avg 47) The total is still around 60. It's just that getting drafted at 17 means they're getting drafted out of junior, while at 18 they were getting drafted out of the NCAA.
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Post by SteveUL on Jun 25, 2007 19:26:19 GMT -5
I'm trying to leave out the NCAA out of the equation ... and looking more at the kids that we are trying to convince to come to the Q instead of NCAA. Once they are in NCAA they are almost a foregone conclusion. So when I look at USDP, USHL and HS ... players that are not yet in NCAA and so are real prospects ... players that are probably waiting for their chance to go NCAA. If the Q can't hands down trump the number of players being drafted from these pre-NCAA options ... then they have very little chance of getting US born players to come here. Its always been the line that the Q is better than USHL and so US kids should come here instead of wasting their time in that league ... but that doesn't seem to be the case. The USHL is beginning to produce just as many draftable players as the Q ... which means "why would a US kid come here instead? " That's kind of a misconception, due to the new NHL CBA. In the old CBA, the draft age was actually 18, with 17 year olds eligible to 'opt in'. However, opting in negated your NCAA eligibility, so none of those US players did it. So they weren't getting drafted until after their 18 year old season, which they played at the NCAA level. In the new CBA, everybody is eligible after their 17 year old season (no opt in). So all these NCAA guys are now getting drafted before their first year of college, not after it. Players drafted from NCAA: during last 4 years of old CBA: 115 (avg 28.75 per year) during first 3 years of new CBA: 39 (avg 13 per year) Players drafted from US Junior/Prep leagues: during last 4 years of old CBA: 122 (avg 30.5) during first 3 years of new CBA: 141 (avg 47) The total is still around 60. It's just that getting drafted at 17 means they're getting drafted out of junior, while at 18 they were getting drafted out of the NCAA. Good information ... but it still shows that these players can choose the USHL over the Q and still seemingly have just as good a chance of getting drafted.
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MikeC
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Post by MikeC on Jun 25, 2007 19:47:04 GMT -5
Good information ... but it still shows that these players can choose the USHL over the Q and still seemingly have just as good a chance of getting drafted. Actually, the USHL numbers haven't changed much. last 4 years of old CBA: 53 (avg 13.25) first 3 years of new CBA: 43 (avg 14.33) It's the high school/prep numbers that have really jumped. last 4 years of old CBA: 42 (avg 10.5) first 3 years of new CBA: 51 (avg 17) And the USNTDP. last 4 years of old CBA: 6 first 3 years of new CBA: 34 (avg 11.33)
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Post by hockeyfan42 on Jun 25, 2007 20:23:51 GMT -5
I agree with a lot of what you are saying here, except that this is something new for 2007. In each of the last 7 drafts, US leagues (NCAA, USNTDP, USHL, Prep, etc) has had more draftees than any individual Canadian Major Junior league. The least amount drafted from the US leagues in any one draft is 47. The most taken from a Canadian Major Junior league is 45. Totals 2001-2007 OHL- 269 QMJHL- 187 WHL- 277 US leagues- 417 But one thing you have to consider in the US is the number of leagues and teams. There are around 60 NCAA D1 schools, 12 USHL teams, 18 NAHL (incl USNTDP), plus numerous prep and high school teams and other junior leagues. The total number of teams represented by the US leagues is no doubt well over 100. I guess what I'm saying is that the Q does have more NHL draftees than any one US league if you look at it on a per team basis. I'm trying to leave out the NCAA out of the equation ... and looking more at the kids that we are trying to convince to come to the Q instead of NCAA. Once they are in NCAA they are almost a foregone conclusion. So when I look at USDP, USHL and HS ... players that are not yet in NCAA and so are real prospects ... players that are probably waiting for their chance to go NCAA. If the Q can't hands down trump the number of players being drafted from these pre-NCAA options ... then they have very little chance of getting US born players to come here. Its always been the line that the Q is better than USHL and so US kids should come here instead of wasting their time in that league ... but that doesn't seem to be the case. The USHL is beginning to produce just as many draftable players as the Q ... which means "why would a US kid come here instead? " Two ppoints need to be considered. First when you look at the Q you are in a much different situation than the OHL or the WHL. New England is producing less quality players period. Less players for the Q, the USHL and NCAA. So as this pie of Americans shrink, getting a good slice from the smaller pie is increasingly difficult. Second, accross the rest of the US, particulalry the Western US more and more quality Americans are being produced. Quite frankly, I think it's time the CHL modify it's US player eligibility by state to reflect this new reality. Perhaps NY and NJ should become Q states, now that California and Texas are producing substantial numbers of quality players. The OHL and WHL just don't have the same problems attracting Americans and they're eating from an ever larger pie.
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Post by Cristobal Huet on Jun 26, 2007 6:37:29 GMT -5
I'm trying to leave out the NCAA out of the equation ... and looking more at the kids that we are trying to convince to come to the Q instead of NCAA. Once they are in NCAA they are almost a foregone conclusion. So when I look at USDP, USHL and HS ... players that are not yet in NCAA and so are real prospects ... players that are probably waiting for their chance to go NCAA. If the Q can't hands down trump the number of players being drafted from these pre-NCAA options ... then they have very little chance of getting US born players to come here. Its always been the line that the Q is better than USHL and so US kids should come here instead of wasting their time in that league ... but that doesn't seem to be the case. The USHL is beginning to produce just as many draftable players as the Q ... which means "why would a US kid come here instead? " Two ppoints need to be considered. First when you look at the Q you are in a much different situation than the OHL or the WHL. New England is producing less quality players period. Less players for the Q, the USHL and NCAA. So as this pie of Americans shrink, getting a good slice from the smaller pie is increasingly difficult. Second, accross the rest of the US, particulalry the Western US more and more quality Americans are being produced. Quite frankly, I think it's time the CHL modify it's US player eligibility by state to reflect this new reality. Perhaps NY and NJ should become Q states, now that California and Texas are producing substantial numbers of quality players. The OHL and WHL just don't have the same problems attracting Americans and they're eating from an ever larger pie. Hockey seems to be booming everywhere in the US except in New England. The New England area is only producing 60% of the players it produced 10 years ago while Minnesota is a hotbed, producing 30-40% more than it did 10 years ago...plus new non-traditional markets have emerged as you said.
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